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	<title>Comments on: Does Anyone Believe in #Predestination Anymore? &#124; Open/Closed Humans</title>
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		<title>By: KB</title>
		<link>http://www.kesterbrewin.com/2009/10/28/does-anyone-believe-in-predestination-anymore-openclosed-humans/comment-page-1/#comment-2232</link>
		<dc:creator>KB</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 09 Nov 2009 21:57:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.kesterbrewin.com/?p=993#comment-2232</guid>
		<description>I&#039;m afraid I think all revelation is tied to human minds. What else do we have? But it is a mind which takes faith seriously...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m afraid I think all revelation is tied to human minds. What else do we have? But it is a mind which takes faith seriously&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: Karsten R</title>
		<link>http://www.kesterbrewin.com/2009/10/28/does-anyone-believe-in-predestination-anymore-openclosed-humans/comment-page-1/#comment-2231</link>
		<dc:creator>Karsten R</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 07 Nov 2009 21:27:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.kesterbrewin.com/?p=993#comment-2231</guid>
		<description>I fear I´m steering to far away from the original topic but I´m a bit confused by your answer, specifically by two statements:
&quot;There is no divine revelation that is outside of the realm of human perception&quot;
&quot;That doesn’t meant there’s no absolute truth&quot;

If &quot;There is no divine revelation that is outside of the realm of human perception...&quot; then all revelation (and their source) is tied to human minds, and that would mean that it is made up in our thought (like german philosopher Ludwig Feuerbach declared) and also that all revelation would cease if no one would perceive it.
Otherwise, if there is a source external to any human mind, then it can reveal itself independent of human perception, so that maybe only its results may be perceived (and maybe only afterwards). Maybe it would never be perceived but still real and effective in the world. But also it may reveal itself in a way that the perceiving mind knows very well what it is and from where it comes.
Of course, such revelation may be disputed by other people, so that there will be a division between those who believe a certain &quot;message&quot; or &quot;myth&quot; as &quot;divine revelation&quot; and those who don`t.
A believer would then not speak about &quot;disputable&quot; at least not when he/she declares his/her own point of view. To those it would be absolute truth, incomplete however as it might be, but fully valid and authoritative in its telling. A skeptic however would maybe use &quot;disputable&quot;, but preferrably would use &quot;speculative&quot; or &quot;superstitious&quot;. To those people the same content is at best &quot;a nice and useful tale&quot; and at worst &quot;the worst and disastrous invention people ever made&quot;.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I fear I´m steering to far away from the original topic but I´m a bit confused by your answer, specifically by two statements:<br />
&#8220;There is no divine revelation that is outside of the realm of human perception&#8221;<br />
&#8220;That doesn’t meant there’s no absolute truth&#8221;</p>
<p>If &#8220;There is no divine revelation that is outside of the realm of human perception&#8230;&#8221; then all revelation (and their source) is tied to human minds, and that would mean that it is made up in our thought (like german philosopher Ludwig Feuerbach declared) and also that all revelation would cease if no one would perceive it.<br />
Otherwise, if there is a source external to any human mind, then it can reveal itself independent of human perception, so that maybe only its results may be perceived (and maybe only afterwards). Maybe it would never be perceived but still real and effective in the world. But also it may reveal itself in a way that the perceiving mind knows very well what it is and from where it comes.<br />
Of course, such revelation may be disputed by other people, so that there will be a division between those who believe a certain &#8220;message&#8221; or &#8220;myth&#8221; as &#8220;divine revelation&#8221; and those who don`t.<br />
A believer would then not speak about &#8220;disputable&#8221; at least not when he/she declares his/her own point of view. To those it would be absolute truth, incomplete however as it might be, but fully valid and authoritative in its telling. A skeptic however would maybe use &#8220;disputable&#8221;, but preferrably would use &#8220;speculative&#8221; or &#8220;superstitious&#8221;. To those people the same content is at best &#8220;a nice and useful tale&#8221; and at worst &#8220;the worst and disastrous invention people ever made&#8221;.</p>
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		<title>By: KB</title>
		<link>http://www.kesterbrewin.com/2009/10/28/does-anyone-believe-in-predestination-anymore-openclosed-humans/comment-page-1/#comment-2229</link>
		<dc:creator>KB</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 06 Nov 2009 20:00:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.kesterbrewin.com/?p=993#comment-2229</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;Instead they insist on knowledge gained through divine revelation where the creator communicated certain statements about the divine nature and about the nature and purpose creation to men. Since the divine nature is said to be timeless or “eternal” it cannot be changed then, only our perception might change, but that´s then not theology but interpretation of it.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

The problem is that we have nothing &lt;i&gt;but&lt;/i&gt; our perception. There is no divine revelation that is outside of the realm of human perception, and therefore all &#039;revelation&#039; is questionable - open to debate and question. It&#039;s &lt;i&gt;all&lt;/i&gt; interpretation.

That doesn&#039;t meant there&#039;s no absolute truth, but it does force us to humbly accept that none of us has full access to that truth. We are constantly engaged in a journey of trying to better perceive that truth, and our context in terms of our technology and society will naturally have an impact on that. For a good example, check out the comment Camus just left on the &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.kesterbrewin.com/2009/06/11/theology-and-the-new-physics-5-many-worlds/comment-page-1/#comment-2228&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Theology and the New Physics&lt;/a&gt; post - the new work that is being done in physics is throwing light onto theological reality. We are going to have to nuance and adjust our position. And this is a good thing.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>Instead they insist on knowledge gained through divine revelation where the creator communicated certain statements about the divine nature and about the nature and purpose creation to men. Since the divine nature is said to be timeless or “eternal” it cannot be changed then, only our perception might change, but that´s then not theology but interpretation of it.</p></blockquote>
<p>The problem is that we have nothing <i>but</i> our perception. There is no divine revelation that is outside of the realm of human perception, and therefore all &#8216;revelation&#8217; is questionable &#8211; open to debate and question. It&#8217;s <i>all</i> interpretation.</p>
<p>That doesn&#8217;t meant there&#8217;s no absolute truth, but it does force us to humbly accept that none of us has full access to that truth. We are constantly engaged in a journey of trying to better perceive that truth, and our context in terms of our technology and society will naturally have an impact on that. For a good example, check out the comment Camus just left on the <a href="http://www.kesterbrewin.com/2009/06/11/theology-and-the-new-physics-5-many-worlds/comment-page-1/#comment-2228" rel="nofollow">Theology and the New Physics</a> post &#8211; the new work that is being done in physics is throwing light onto theological reality. We are going to have to nuance and adjust our position. And this is a good thing.</p>
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		<title>By: Karsten R</title>
		<link>http://www.kesterbrewin.com/2009/10/28/does-anyone-believe-in-predestination-anymore-openclosed-humans/comment-page-1/#comment-2227</link>
		<dc:creator>Karsten R</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 06 Nov 2009 17:49:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.kesterbrewin.com/?p=993#comment-2227</guid>
		<description>You wrote &quot;Our technological context does impact our thinking, and therefore must impact our theology&quot;. 
Do I understand that correctly, that theology is made up in our thinking? Theology means &quot;what we can say about God&quot; or what we may know or understand about God.
If it is made up (solely) in our thinking then of course it must constantly change, and no one might foresee the direction, because our thinking and our social environment constantly change too.
However, as far as  understand, that is not what Christianity traditionally says about the process of gaining knowledge about God, instead they insist on knowledge gained through divine revelation where the creator communicated certain statements about the divine nature and about the nature and purpose creation to men. Since the divine nature is said to be timeless or &quot;eternal&quot; it cannot be changed then, only our perception might change, but that´s then not theology but interpretation of it.
As for the determinism (or non-determinism) in technology, a computer, even a KI machine is totally deterministic when we take the position of its inventor or creator, and maybe (I´m not a theologian therefore I can only guess) the doctrine of predestination is just an attempt to guess how the matter looks like from the position of a being that exists outside the restrictions of time?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You wrote &#8220;Our technological context does impact our thinking, and therefore must impact our theology&#8221;.<br />
Do I understand that correctly, that theology is made up in our thinking? Theology means &#8220;what we can say about God&#8221; or what we may know or understand about God.<br />
If it is made up (solely) in our thinking then of course it must constantly change, and no one might foresee the direction, because our thinking and our social environment constantly change too.<br />
However, as far as  understand, that is not what Christianity traditionally says about the process of gaining knowledge about God, instead they insist on knowledge gained through divine revelation where the creator communicated certain statements about the divine nature and about the nature and purpose creation to men. Since the divine nature is said to be timeless or &#8220;eternal&#8221; it cannot be changed then, only our perception might change, but that´s then not theology but interpretation of it.<br />
As for the determinism (or non-determinism) in technology, a computer, even a KI machine is totally deterministic when we take the position of its inventor or creator, and maybe (I´m not a theologian therefore I can only guess) the doctrine of predestination is just an attempt to guess how the matter looks like from the position of a being that exists outside the restrictions of time?</p>
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		<title>By: John L</title>
		<link>http://www.kesterbrewin.com/2009/10/28/does-anyone-believe-in-predestination-anymore-openclosed-humans/comment-page-1/#comment-2221</link>
		<dc:creator>John L</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 02 Nov 2009 15:34:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.kesterbrewin.com/?p=993#comment-2221</guid>
		<description>thanks. the literature on creativity is rich and varied. much to consider. Interesting that he equates romantic baggage with the creative process. I think our inherited religious traditions ARE mostly built on passion and romanticism. perhaps the conduit between the dispassion of science and the passion of religion is empathy.  

&quot;anything going to be available in due course?&quot;

hopefully.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>thanks. the literature on creativity is rich and varied. much to consider. Interesting that he equates romantic baggage with the creative process. I think our inherited religious traditions ARE mostly built on passion and romanticism. perhaps the conduit between the dispassion of science and the passion of religion is empathy.  </p>
<p>&#8220;anything going to be available in due course?&#8221;</p>
<p>hopefully.</p>
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		<title>By: KB</title>
		<link>http://www.kesterbrewin.com/2009/10/28/does-anyone-believe-in-predestination-anymore-openclosed-humans/comment-page-1/#comment-2220</link>
		<dc:creator>KB</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 02 Nov 2009 07:59:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.kesterbrewin.com/?p=993#comment-2220</guid>
		<description>John L - as promised:

&lt;blockquote&gt;An eagle-eyed reader will have noticed that the word &lt;i&gt;creativity&lt;/i&gt; appears in this book as little as possible. This is because the word carries too much Romantic baggage - the mystery of inspiration, the claims of genius. I have sought to eliminate some of the mystery by showing how intuitive leaps happen, in the reflections people make on the actions of their own hands or in the use of tools. I have sought to draw art and craft together, because all techniques contain expressive implications. This is true of making a pot; it is also true of raising a child.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

Page 290 of The Craftsman.

Your studies sound interesting... anything going to be available in due course?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>John L &#8211; as promised:</p>
<blockquote><p>An eagle-eyed reader will have noticed that the word <i>creativity</i> appears in this book as little as possible. This is because the word carries too much Romantic baggage &#8211; the mystery of inspiration, the claims of genius. I have sought to eliminate some of the mystery by showing how intuitive leaps happen, in the reflections people make on the actions of their own hands or in the use of tools. I have sought to draw art and craft together, because all techniques contain expressive implications. This is true of making a pot; it is also true of raising a child.</p></blockquote>
<p>Page 290 of The Craftsman.</p>
<p>Your studies sound interesting&#8230; anything going to be available in due course?</p>
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		<title>By: Carl Morris</title>
		<link>http://www.kesterbrewin.com/2009/10/28/does-anyone-believe-in-predestination-anymore-openclosed-humans/comment-page-1/#comment-2218</link>
		<dc:creator>Carl Morris</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 30 Oct 2009 15:32:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.kesterbrewin.com/?p=993#comment-2218</guid>
		<description>To a man with a hammer, everything looks like a Windows NT server problem.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>To a man with a hammer, everything looks like a Windows NT server problem.</p>
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		<title>By: John D. Palmer</title>
		<link>http://www.kesterbrewin.com/2009/10/28/does-anyone-believe-in-predestination-anymore-openclosed-humans/comment-page-1/#comment-2217</link>
		<dc:creator>John D. Palmer</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 29 Oct 2009 20:16:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.kesterbrewin.com/?p=993#comment-2217</guid>
		<description>great conversation thanks.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>great conversation thanks.</p>
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		<title>By: John L</title>
		<link>http://www.kesterbrewin.com/2009/10/28/does-anyone-believe-in-predestination-anymore-openclosed-humans/comment-page-1/#comment-2216</link>
		<dc:creator>John L</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 29 Oct 2009 19:17:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.kesterbrewin.com/?p=993#comment-2216</guid>
		<description>OKAY, will look for your reply down the road (or e-mail me if you would). I&#039;m studying &quot;creativity&quot; at the moment so this is timely. 

...

Technology is rarely theologically (more specifically, ecclesiastically) neutral. Technology is created with agenda - commercial, industrial, military, scientific, etc.. Theology / ecclesia is impacted by all of these grand human imaginings -and- the technologies which sustain them.  

What&#039;s most important, I think, is our intentionality towards technology. If we remain &quot;neutral,&quot; we remain blind to its power to amplify, shape, inform, control, gather, change, persuade, inspire...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>OKAY, will look for your reply down the road (or e-mail me if you would). I&#8217;m studying &#8220;creativity&#8221; at the moment so this is timely. </p>
<p>&#8230;</p>
<p>Technology is rarely theologically (more specifically, ecclesiastically) neutral. Technology is created with agenda &#8211; commercial, industrial, military, scientific, etc.. Theology / ecclesia is impacted by all of these grand human imaginings -and- the technologies which sustain them.  </p>
<p>What&#8217;s most important, I think, is our intentionality towards technology. If we remain &#8220;neutral,&#8221; we remain blind to its power to amplify, shape, inform, control, gather, change, persuade, inspire&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: KB</title>
		<link>http://www.kesterbrewin.com/2009/10/28/does-anyone-believe-in-predestination-anymore-openclosed-humans/comment-page-1/#comment-2215</link>
		<dc:creator>KB</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 29 Oct 2009 18:05:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.kesterbrewin.com/?p=993#comment-2215</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;My sense though, is that technology, is neutral in its impact on theological conversation.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

I&#039;d want to &lt;i&gt;strongly&lt;/i&gt; disagree with that. In fact, it&#039;s one of the cornerstones of what we are doing with these &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.vaux.net/apple&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Apple&lt;/a&gt; conversations that our technological context does have an impact on our theology. 

The tools we make - the technologies we use - are an integral part of who we are as people. We are both separate from them, but bound to them too. A proper understanding of the relationship we have with our tools is thus vital to our understanding of the world around us, and thus of God too.

In a &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.kesterbrewin.com/2009/10/14/reflections-on-apple2-heidegger-technology/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;recent post&lt;/a&gt; on Heidegger&#039;s understanding of technology I noted that &quot;it creates a prism through which it is too easy to see the world as purely a resource for our consumption.&quot; Mark Twain puts it so much more simply: &quot;to a man with a hammer, everything looks like a nail.&quot;

Our technological context does impact our thinking, and therefore must impact our theology. We only need look at Jesus&#039; parables to see that the metaphors he used embraced technologies of his day. We understand something theological by &#039;wineskins&#039; etc.

John L - sorry, I&#039;m away til Sat and not brought the book with me, so won&#039;t try to rehash his argument without the original quote!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>My sense though, is that technology, is neutral in its impact on theological conversation.</p></blockquote>
<p>I&#8217;d want to <i>strongly</i> disagree with that. In fact, it&#8217;s one of the cornerstones of what we are doing with these <a href="http://www.vaux.net/apple" rel="nofollow">Apple</a> conversations that our technological context does have an impact on our theology. </p>
<p>The tools we make &#8211; the technologies we use &#8211; are an integral part of who we are as people. We are both separate from them, but bound to them too. A proper understanding of the relationship we have with our tools is thus vital to our understanding of the world around us, and thus of God too.</p>
<p>In a <a href="http://www.kesterbrewin.com/2009/10/14/reflections-on-apple2-heidegger-technology/" rel="nofollow">recent post</a> on Heidegger&#8217;s understanding of technology I noted that &#8220;it creates a prism through which it is too easy to see the world as purely a resource for our consumption.&#8221; Mark Twain puts it so much more simply: &#8220;to a man with a hammer, everything looks like a nail.&#8221;</p>
<p>Our technological context does impact our thinking, and therefore must impact our theology. We only need look at Jesus&#8217; parables to see that the metaphors he used embraced technologies of his day. We understand something theological by &#8216;wineskins&#8217; etc.</p>
<p>John L &#8211; sorry, I&#8217;m away til Sat and not brought the book with me, so won&#8217;t try to rehash his argument without the original quote!</p>
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